In this explosive interview, Chairman, Northern Christian Association (NCA), Rev.
Joseph Haya reveals some of the inner workings of the administration of former Governor of Kaduna State, Malam Nasir El-Rufai, especially actions he allegedly took against Christians,mainly of Southern Kaduna origin.
Rev. Hayab backed Sheikh Maraya who recently alleged that while El-Rufai announced a ban on government’s sponsorship of pilgrimages, he allegedly secretly bankrolled only his fellow Muslims to the holy land to the total exclusion of Christians.
Rev. Hayab spoke to our Kaduna State correspondent, ACHADU GABRIEL.
P&P: For the benefit of some readers, you may wish to accurately introduce yourself briefly.
Rev. Hayab: Well, I am Reverend Joseph John Hayab, the Chairman of Northern Christian Association (NCA).
P&P: How far do you know about Sheikh Haliru Maraya, who made the revelations or allegations of former Gov. Nasir El-Rufai’s position against Christian pilgrimage, in an interview with newsmen in Kaduna. Can you vouch for Sheikh Maraya’s character?
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Rev. Hayab: Well, myself and Sheikh Maraya have been friends for a very long time. If you Google the internet …just go to the internet and Google and write “the Kaduna twins”, you will find our story.
Many Muslims and government officials in Kaduna used to call us the twins, because when I met him in 2010, in May 2010, when Yakowa became Governor, we had a meeting together. And, you know, when Yakowa became Governor, after the elevation of Namadi Sambo as Vice-President, I can remember in December, there were lots of issues around here in Kaduna.
But Maraya came and said ‘no, let’s behave the way a true Muslim should behave. God did not say that He gives power to only Muslims. The Qur’an says God gives power to whoever He will, and He can will power to someone who is not a Muslim. Unless we are interpreting our Qur’an with selfishness’.
That was just how we met. And we flew. I remember raising emotion and calling on people, ‘look, we’ve had Muslim Governors in this town. We’ve supported them and they’ve done excellently well. And now God has given us a Christian, why don’t we join hands to support?’
And he, Maraya, raised his hand and said ‘look, what I hear is, I’m together with this Reverend; this is how our state should be, if we want to know peace’, and that’s how we connected in May 2010 and became friends till today.
So, we worked together and later on he was appointed by Yakowa as Senior Special Assistant; and after the first one year, he was appointed by Yakowa as Special Advisor on Religious Matters.
I remember during the campaign for Yakowa’s election, it was that single Muslim voice that would go on television and say ‘no, we must not do campaign on religious basis. We must not campaign on people because they are of our tribe’.
I learned so many things from him. One of the examples he cited was that, he said, ‘look, when you go to the airport to board a flight and they tell you that ‘look, sorry, the pilot is not feeling fine, but your lmam is here’, you will not board that flight because your lmam is not a pilot. You are only going to board a flight that an experienced pilot is going to fly, and is the pilot of the plane.
So if that is what we go for is an experienced or a genuine pilot, why are we going for the wrong people in leadership just because they must be our religion?
So, you don’t trust your Imam to be a pilot since he’s not a pilot, but you trust your religious man to be a Governor or a President even when he cannot deliver the service.
Another example that I learned is that, you just say ‘look, when your car gets spoiled now, you don’t ask people, where is the Muslim mechanic?’ You ask people, ‘who is a good mechanic, a Peugeot mechanic, or a Mercedes mechanic’.
So, he’s very plain and talks about his approach to religious understanding, tolerance, acceptability are fantastic. So because of that long relationship, and then we started working. If you see him the next five minutes, you’ll see me. When you see me the next five minutes, you’ll see him.
So people started calling us the Kaduna twins. The story is there on the internet. It wasn’t written today, long ago. And we go around championing the slogan that we are one family under God; especially as people of the religious faith, we all believe that the origin of mankind came from Adam and Eve.
The Holy Quran says so. The Holy Bible says so. And the Qur’an, the Jewish holy book also agree with that.
So, I can vouch for Malam Maraya’s character based on these things I’ve said. So for years, not today, since 2010 till today, you can see we’ve gone about 16 years of great, fruitful relationship beyond the shores of this country.
P&P: Okay, beyond that, are you surprised about Maraya’s revelation on El-Rufai’s selective ban on pilgrims?
Rev. Hayab: No, no, no, I’m not surprised about Maraya’s revelation. I think there are many things. We need more people like Maraya, not because he spoke something favorably about Christians, but someone who will accept when his own people are wrong; someone who will accept when his own person is wrong, will accept when the person …someone has cheated his fellow human being without trying to cover him because they are of the same religion or the same. No, no, no. That shouldn’t be.
So, I think I’m not surprised at what he said because I’ve known him to do it. Let me tell you: when he was doing that campaign for Yakowa, I know how youths were gathered to go and lynch him.
Sometimes he would be doing this campaign in DITV there (in Kaduna city) speaking about togetherness, and they wouldn’t want it, but he didn’t give up.
He was so strong, so courageous. I can tell you that before Maraya became an Advisor to Yakowa, he was brought as Special Assistant.
We had somebody who was an Advisor, but he was playing double standard, thinking we did not know. Sometimes when we go out and Maraya started preaching this truth, the person will be angry and asked me never to give Maraya the microphone again to speak. And then we just wondered.
So when Yakowa got re-elected, he had to be kept aside. Maraya came on board. Because sometimes we don’t talk about what people do, does not mean that we don’t know what people have done to us.
Reactions To Yakowa’s Death
The day Yakowa died, it was a sad thing for him as a person. When others were beating drum and jubilating that their serious enemy who took over the office from them is dead, Maraya became a sad person.
And I can say up till today, the kind of relationship Maraya had with a good number of us Christians, the kind of relationship Maraya has with the family of Yakowa, it’s something that you cannot explain.
He’s just that person who believes in fairness, equity, and justice. As a human being, he may have other faults that I don’t know, I don’t want to get myself into that, but the one I know is what I’ve said.
So, I can vouch for him, knowing what is a character, the way and how he stood for justice, the way how he stood for your call and how he speaks favorably for another Christian.
If we can have people like that advising leaders politically, advising leaders in government, some of this religious divide we are seeing, will not be.
So Maraya is someone that you can go to sleep; if he’s going to tell the government, he will tell the government the truth, and I realized that the current Governor Uba Sani has found in him that straightforward person. Some of the things he’s saying now, people are just hearing it.
El-Rufai And Sheikh Maraya
But when El-Rufai was governor, he invited him to the breaking of fast in Government House. And he said these things he has said now. At that time, they actually had to edit it and ask media not to carry what he said to them, in Government House.
But because today no one will edit the story, that’s why you are hearing it new. For me I know that one.
He also did that; at that time he came for one of the breaking of fasting with us and told them how things are not going right -lack of fairness, this and that. And that they have to be fair because I remember one day we had a conversation and this matter came up, and some did admit that ‘yes we have to say no, this matter shouldn’t go out. We just say the sweet one’.
And so that was how it became. They were no longer interviewing him anymore, mostly, and so he continued to live his life doing the work he is doing. Whatever may have been the reason for that, I have just told you one typical example. And I believe that we can still trace that story.
Because one person was able to say that thing he said that time, when they played it down, they didn’t want it to be.
But now, no one can play it down. And even when he meets people, he normally says the truth and nothing but the truth.
He said, ‘no, we have one committee’. And there was an issue around establishing some agencies that will be one-sided. The moment I stood up, I said ‘this is wrong’. He stood up and agreed with me and told his Muslim colleagues that ‘this thing is wrong; if we do it this way, the people have a right to also ask for certain things that we will not’. I remember, it’s not just …sometimes, it’s not everything we know, we talk about.
P&P: So, as CAN Chairman then, were you aware of the development: the ban on Christian pilgrimage and the underground sponsorship of Muslim pilgrims by El-Rufai? What did you do?
Rev. Hayab: Okay, if you don’t know, then I can even write in your presence: Google how the then Executive Secretary (ES) of Pilgrims Agency visited me in my office as CAN Chairman of Kaduna State on the issue of pilgrimage.
And I gave it to him. I’m really not happy, and they wrote articles. I’m just surprised that people have forgotten that they wrote articles. Look at it, it is even in Facebook. They stated that it’s (Christian pilgrimage) is misplaced priority.
We challenged them to first inquire about the number of persons who are still in bandits’ captivity. So they came to me. I said all this was the fact that at that time they were holding sway.
So, I told him I disagree with the idea. You’re coming to talk about Christian pilgrimage when in reality this is the evil going on around us.
So, I have done that and it was written. They wrote in Blueprint newspapers and which other paper they wrote it as an article challenging me.
But one thing I used to do is that, if I have told you my truth, if you like go and write what you want to write, I have told you my truth. Posterity will judge me for having said it.
I remember that time, there was one in my area, because you want to quote me. Well, he didn’t just insult me, he wrote a book with a chapter lying against me.
A lawyer came to me and said ‘go and sue him for character assassination, for defamation’. I said I will just make him popular. You don’t even know him now.
If I had done it that time, I would have made him popular because they were in government breaking everything.
So you see when people go and manipulate lies and manipulate things because they think they have power, power is transient; within a short time, it’s over.
Look, I know a lawyer who came to me more than five times. He said he would like, he would take the case for me. I said I will not promote ignorance.
I remember one sister who knows him very well even challenged him and said, ‘this Hayab you are writing and insulting is far above you, before us’.
He did not have the humility to come and apologize, he thought they will be there (on government) forever.
We are here now, nobody even knows he might exist today. So that’s the kind of life.
So, it is not what Maraya said; they were things we have said before, we fought about it before, but at that time everything that comes from us is like it’s evil; everything that comes from Hayab is evil.
Hayab is an enemy. I had to, at that time, challenge them and say ‘wait a minute — I worked with Makarfi, he wasn’t a Christian, I supported him. I worked with Namadi Sambo, he wasn’t a Christian, I supported him. I worked with Ramalan Yero, he wasn’t a Christian, I supported him. I even asked people to vote for El-Rufai thinking he’s an educated person not knowing that he’s an educated bigot’.
But so I wasn’t an enemy. I asked who you are and others who follow him; they will tell you that, before he became Governor, my name was ringing bell among them for the kind of understanding I felt.
If we get an educated person, he will unite the State. Unfortunately we got an educated bigot who instead of uniting the state, divided the State. He suppressed other people in the State at that time.
Even like that, I wasn’t given appointment and I asked myself ‘have I one day sent my CV to any of them because they can’t give me appointment without my CV or they just appoint people?’ I never applied for it. I never asked for it.
See, personally when I saw this I went to verify and challenge him (El-Rufai) face to face in his office. I used three issues. One, demolition of houses and schools. I said people have retired, taken all their retirement money to build houses and you are now demolishing houses without knowing the issue. Why do you do that? It’s not fair.
I took another issue. That’s when I challenged him. Why will you say Christians didn’t vote for you? And I presented my facts –and he apologized. He realized, that is it.
And I also challenged him, why is he fighting with the SOKAPU (Southern Kaduna Peoples Union) and Southern Kaduna Elders, calling them that they are getting money, and even other religions, because at that time he wasn’t fighting me.
And I told him ‘see, I’ve been in CAN for too long. I can tell you that this CAN does not have a domiciliary account. So, check the record of CAN from the time I am in CAN to now. Before I got elected as Chairman, check, you will see that CAN has never received a grant from any organization abroad’.
So, with that you need to understand these lies so at that time as they were, and I have the evidence on the net.
So, it is not that we didn’t say it. It is just that at that time, since they were the ones holding power… Let me tell you even for people like you in Kaduna State, there was a time that journalists will not write the story we say. Yes! Even if we cry that our mother is dead, they are afraid to write because they will stop them.
P&P: The worry especially is that this ban started as early as 2015 and it continued, and El-Rufai continued to sponsor people to Saudi Arabia pilgrimage in numbers on every yearly basis.
Rev. Hayab: Yea, he was lying and saying that he was sponsoring officials, so that they will keep improving their knowledge of what is going on there.
See, throughout El-Rufai’s tenure as Governor, he never appointed one person as ES (Executive Secretary) of Christian Pilgrims board. He had three different ES Muslim board, but no one person was appointed as ES for Christians. At least, you know it takes an institution to grow with leadership. He was not ready for that.
P&P: Does that mean he merged the Pilgrims boards?
Rev. Hayab: Yeah, it was later when he had successfully killed Christian board, he now came and merged it. But they were ES Hajj board before. When he had successfully killed it then, he now merged it and said they have ES Pilgrims agency.
And that was when the then ES of Pilgrims agency came to me. And I said to him, ‘brother, you can come to us and play game. After all we are battling with our brothers and sisters who have been killed. So when do we have time to talk about this matter? First, secure our people then we can discuss this’.
That is to tell you the level of hatred. When you see El-Rufai before he became Governor, he was a very enlightened person. But the moment God gave him the office of Governor, his eyes became blind and he became a bigot, he became nepotistic. Look, he was no longer respectful of anybody.
What he did was that he picked some few, three or four, Southern Kaduna people and empowered them to insult everybody at that time.
One of them almost beat me in a meeting. I’m the pastor, someone whose life, 80 percent of what makes him what he is, it’s me. But just to protect that man, he almost beat me In a meeting live and direct.
A Commissioner was in that meeting. I was shocked and said ‘What! With us here, you do this?’
If I’m not telling the truth, ask him. I hope you understand. So he did that.
Let me tell you: he gathered so many young children because there’s something that has been going on those people don’t know. Our people have deliberately been impoverished for a very long time to the extent that they can come with small money and use your brother against you because of hunger and poverty.
At time that even my in-law, the brother of my wife, was among those that were given N25,000 to be going to churches and enter and write stories, everything you see on pulpit, to go and tell him; then you start attacking everybody.
So these things were there. These are stories we don’t want people to hear. But they are so bad, terribly done.
Today we keep receiving people coming back to apologize for what they did, coming back.
And I’m even surprised when I read in some papers, I will see people talking about how bad he was. And I said ‘you mean at that time, were you blind? At that time were you out of your senses?’
I was in a function few days ago and a very important person in government stood up in the function and said ‘we are happy that Uba Sani has taken over the tyrant ruling them with force’. So everybody have to speak favorably to live well then.
Some of us who didn’t speak favorably had to be looking for places to hide.
I know one Bishop in this country from Kaduna State who keeps calling me every day and says, ‘look, I owe you gratitude because when all of us were scared to tell this man the truth, you were not afraid, you told him the truth. So when this truth started coming out now, if there’s anyone to celebrate, we should celebrate you because you said these things at that time, and we’re afraid to back you up’. Here is it today.
P&P: Was it that the Christian body in Kaduna City was not aware of this development,the selective sponsorship of pilgrims?
Rev. Hayab: This, no no no! Christian bodies were fully aware, we even spoke about it. See, they wrote articles, I’m telling you, Google it,
they wrote articles insulting me that they came to me, and in explanation, my outburst was too hard. And I just kept quiet.
You came to me to talk to me about something that I know you are not going to answer, and I said ‘wait a minute: in the first place, this is not how things are done; if it is Christian pilgrimage, is it a Muslim that will discuss with me about Christian pilgrimage?’ No.
Secondly, you were talking to me,
you don’t even care about my people that are being killed, I’m burying people every day, and you are coming to play a game around pilgrimage.
So, hold your pilgrimage and let’s see what happens to you.
P&P: On a final note, what is the last decision you have taken to resolve the matter that happened from 2015-2023 when El-Rufai finished his tenures as Governor?
Rev. Hayab: You see, in every responsibility, let me say this, every evil you have ever seen will always have an end. I think that’s what people do not know about.
Two weeks ago, a pastor called me and
said ‘you’re a prophet’ and I said ‘What have I done? What have I prophesied?’
He said ‘you have always come out on paper to say that if they refuse…’ -because, you see, even in construction of road, El-Rufai didn’t construct road among my people, and then I used to just calm my people by saying ‘don’t worry, when they finish repairing their roads, they will eventually come and do our own. And when they start doing our own, our own will be new and their own will be old’.
And so with the new roads going on now, some pastors started calling me and say ‘you’re a prophet. You said this, that they will come and do our road when the time comes and ours will be new, their own will be old’.
I said ‘well, I didn’t say it to insult anybody; I’m just saying something that is obvious’.
Government supposed to develop communities, provide services for all citizens but if, out of selfishness chose to develop one group and abandon another group, a time will definitely come, if not you, somebody else will come and realize there is no more need
to build roads here.
So, where there are no roads is here. So he (Uba Sani) will build it and he will take credit for what ordinarily, you would have done and everybody is happy.
When you see we are centering this matter on the pilgrimage as something important, when he went in our name and took huge loan and called it urban renewal, what was the urban in a unified idea? It was his people, his religion and not connected.
See the road from Television garage to Barnawa Sabon Tasha, we are all part of the urban renewal, but you know, he just constructed from Barnawa, where the Muslim people are, to junction and called (then President Muhammadu Buhari) to come and commission it.
But the one that goes straight to our people, he abandoned it. They are just being constructed now after a lot of pressure. Uba Sani felt ‘it’s okay; to be fair, we need to
complete this place’.
So, many areas around our place, you can’t even drive car. If you do, you must go to your mechanic in the morning and you will go in the afternoon the next day. You go again in the morning because every day your car will spoil.
Some Journalists Allowed Themselves To Be Used By El-Rufai Govt
Some Nigeria journalists, media reports, editors, especially television, salary payment, hmmm, it’ll be well, are the reasons for our problem.
As journalists, because it’s important you quote me properly to have said this: if you write lies to help the man, the evil attitude of the man will also fall together with you. You’re not immune. You’re supposed to be the one that will expose evil, but they just give you one peanut.
Some of those who they use that time to be insulting us, we are at day to day. They don’t even have any tangible thing that they can present it in the world. So this was how stupid the whole thing is.
So we cried out. We spoke against it. We said ‘this money (urban renewal loan) is our money’. We said that this money will be… look, they will deduct this money from our money. It’s not a revival. A revival is not an agenda’.
They completely crumbled our people, to completely weaken our people, we are grateful we are alive.
Someone Is Presently Detained In ICPC While I Walk Free
At least for some days now, someone has been sleeping in ICPC. I have not stolen anybody’s money, so I can’t sleep in ICPC.
I will not be using police in ICPC
to look for ways to talk to people outside.
But at least some people will have to be using police in ICPC to talk to people outside. So let’s be careful.
For everybody, as a pastor, I’m advising those in political office, please treat people well so that when you leave, people talk good about you.
And we have a good example in Kaduna, of a person who had left government since 2000, but up to today, we talk good about him.
Up to today, we praise him, we pray.
Upill today, we hail him for what he did.
I attended one meeting when El-Rufai was Governor. In my presence, he said that the reason why we are even opening our mouth to talk is because McCarthy (Irish Catholic Archbishop of Kaduna from 1954 who did a lot of spiritual work in the region) was too kind to us.
But if it’s him, he’s supposed not to give us anything.
*PHOTO CAPTION: Rev. Hayab.
